The Unexplored World of Organ Meats with Ashleigh Van Houten

Tune in to Colin's chat with the Muscle Maven, Ashleigh Van Houten, and learn all about incorporating organ meats into your diet, how to cook them, and more!

Fried heart? Chicken liver paste? Boiled tongue? These options might sound a bit out of the ordinary, but the true nutritional powerhouses can be found in cuts that we tend to ignore. Tune in to Colin's chat with the Muscle Maven, Ashleigh Van Houten, and learn all about incorporating organ meats into your diet, how to cook them, and more!

Find Ashleigh on the following links:

About Show: The Better Human Podcast is a show dedicated to the pursuit of Building Better Humans. Hosted by Colin Stuckert, Entrepreneur, Thinker, and Better Human Builder. We are obsessed with finding ways to become better. We are PRO HUMAN and celebrate the collective human experience. We bring on human guests to teach, share, and learn.

Free Resources

Alderspring Ranch - Probably the healthiest grass-fed beef on the planet. We had the founder on the Ancestral Mind podcast. You can listen here.

🐂🐂 Crowd Cow: My other trusted online beef supplier. If I'm in the mood for real Wagyu or quality grass-fed American beef, this is where I go.

What I take daily for optimal health: Wild Fish OilWild ShroomsWild Pink saltWild Collagen

The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: I own the Kindle version, a physical copy and the free PDF. It's that good.

Free Skillshare course access links (limited supply)

Copyright 2020 Colin Stuckert

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products and recommendations are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.


[00:00:00] Throughout all of history andevery person in the world. People ate every part of the animal, because that'sjust what you did like before Google told you how nutrient dense liver was,people just hunted animals and ate their liver. Cause they knew, right. Yup.

[00:00:27] Ashley, welcome to the show.Thank you. I'm excited to be here. So we talked a while ago. It seems like, andit's kind of funny how you like one conversation with someone on a podcast andit's like an hour long and you feel like your buddies, you know, I can like DMUand it's just like very casual. It's just really, really fascinating.

[00:00:43] So we decided to do the video soI can see your book in the background, which we're gonna talk about. And we'regonna talk about your recent, I guess, departure from paleo magazine. Cause youwere there for a while and you mean you grew that podcast to like prettysubstantial. I remember you. I see. I saw you guys had a million downloads.

[00:00:57] Is that correct? Yeah. Over amillion [00:01:00] downloads. So are you not doing that show anymore and justlike complete your own thing? Like give us a backstory. Yeah. I'll give you,uh, I'll try to give you the quick backstory as a podcast host. I'm not knownfor being succinct so you can feel free to interrupt me as needed.

[00:01:12] Um, but you know, I've, I'vewritten for paleo magazine for probably eight years. That's really how I kindagot my. Start from the journalistic side in health and wellness, I was kind ofdoing it for fun. And then I managed to sort of connect with those guys and Iwrote a couple of things for them and that sort of spiraled to the point that Iwas writing probably three or four, uh, pieces in every issue.

[00:01:33] And then I took over as host ofthe podcast and I hosted paleo magazine radio for about three years. Um, Andthen sort of at the beginning of the pandemic. So when things were reallystarting to heat up, uh, last March the magazine, and of course, I'm notspeaking on behalf of the magazine. I want anyone who hears this to know thatthis is my experience with what happened.

[00:01:53] So if you, you know, maybe ifyou spoke to the folks at paleo Mexican, they might have more information foryou, but this is just what I know. [00:02:00] So they decided they had made thedecision to move the magazine from print to digital only. And their reasoningwas that it was obviously more sustainable and better for the environment tonot have print paper magazines.

[00:02:14] And also of course, cost it's anextremely expensive venture. And while that, from my understanding that themagazine did quite no, considering that it was a niche publication, like theywere the first and best people to do it in the paleo world. I think that maybe,maybe they were having some struggles, maybe they're having some issues.

[00:02:31] Maybe they just didn't kind ofwant to do it anymore. And so they were transitioning to. Uh, digital, uh,framework only. Um, and I had some concerns again, just as somebody who has lovedthe magazine and been a part of it for a long time. I didn't really know ifthey were super set up to sort of support, um, a digital framework.

[00:02:49] Yeah. It's completely different.It's not as simple, just transfer. I liked seeing the magazine. Like if I gointo whole foods and I see all the, plant-based basically propaganda, thispoint, I like seeing [00:03:00] paleo magazine there as a counterpoint. Right.And like I used to buy, I remember when it was always there, I would always buyit just like as a, as a rule of thumb.

[00:03:05] Cause like, wow. Paleo is goingmainstream. So it's kind of sucks that I feel like there's not going to beanything like that anymore. Or maybe there will be. And like the weird thingtoo, is like, I get that. They were saying like, this is part of our ethos isto not be wasteful and all that stuff, but there's also something sort ofparallel where it's like, paleo is about analog and like really like not beingon screens all day.

[00:03:26] And so kind of this movement.Whatever. So that was happening and they were doing the transition. They kindof stopped sort of the writers weren't really writing anymore. So that was sortof my first pandemic job loss that happened to me. Mode is what it is. And Iwas like, I'll be happy to support you.

[00:03:40] However it is going. Um, thenext decision they made with the, they decided to shut the podcast down, whichdidn't make a lot of sense if you're moving to a digital platform. Right. Why?Okay. So what's the. Did it cost a lot of money? Were they like paying perepisode? Cause I mean, podcast is one of those things that you probably getsomebody to almost do it for free.

[00:03:59] If [00:04:00] they enjoy doingit, like I would do a podcast for free if it was like a part of something, youknow? Yeah. I mean, my understanding was more, it wasn't that it was costingthem. So much, it said it wasn't making them so much. And, um, I think, youknow, as we all in this industry know that podcasting to a certain extent is abit more of a labor of love and also supporting maybe other things that you do.

[00:04:21] Like there are probably very fewpeople getting rich podcasting the format, right? Like it's just not, it'slike, it's like YouTube. Yeah. 1% of 1% might make sustainable money. And therest kind of make 10 bucks from ad cents every so often, but that's not why youwould. Shut a YouTube channel down, especially if you have a million downloads,right?

[00:04:39] Like that just seems strange. Imean, I fought it, I fought it. I said, look, I think we've, this is the onlydigital platform you currently have, but it's working. If you want to startmaking some money, we can get some sponsors. We can get some people to put somemoney into it. We built this audience, like let's, you know, let's revisit thisand he, they just weren't into it.

[00:04:58] So they shut it down forprobably six [00:05:00] weeks. And while this was happening and I had lost thisbig, not only this big part of my, my career, but also this, this platform thatI use to communicate with people, to connect with people. And I was reallymissing it during the pandemic. And I'm like, I'm not about this.

[00:05:14] Like, this is just going to keepfloundering where we're losing people were. During a time when people want tofeel more connected than ever we're less now I'm not into it. So I went back tothem and I'm like, let me just take the podcast. Like, let me just take it andall rename it and run with it. Cause you don't want it any more.

[00:05:29] And like, this is kind of mything at this point. Like I've been doing it for a few years and uh, so I endedup buying it from them. Um, they didn't want to get it to, I was just going toask you, is it for sale so that, so I'm glad somebody took advantage of it. So that'sgood. So you're going to reactivate it or what.

[00:05:44] Well, this is what I did. So mypodcast right now, um, is muscle Maven radio and it is the former killer.Essentially just took the audience and rebranded it like overnight. And nowit's, I know, I think it's better because [00:06:00] now it's, it's literallyme and my same sort of ability to communicate. The same great guests, but I'vekind of opened it up a little bit more so that it's not like it doesn't have tobe tied to paleo.

[00:06:10] Right. Um, and it isn't, youknow, we're talking nutrition, we're talking fitness, we're talking wellness,I'm talking to neuroscientists, I'm talking to nutritionists, I'm talking allkinds of people, athletes. Um, and so it's continued to grow and it was kind ofa fun process for me because it was me sort of taking the reins of.

[00:06:25] You know, people who createtheir own jobs and entrepreneurs at a certain point, you have to stopsupporting other people and start doing something for yourself. And that'sreally kind of, this was sort of the opportunity for me to do that. I'm like,you know, I did this thing for paleo magazine for a while and I'm going to doit for myself and hopefully reach more people and do more with it.

[00:06:42] So, um, I don't really knowwhat's going on with paleo magazine right now. I hope that they continue and Ihope that they keep providing a valuable service to people. I haven't reallyseen much happening. Um, but. I dunno. So, um, well, that's great. I'm glad youtook advantage of that opportunity. I mean, that's.

[00:06:56] It's actually gonna be anopportunity for you. I think that's awesome. [00:07:00] Actually, it's probablya good thing to happen for you. So, so you've, you know, take advantage of thispandemic, right? Like as a lot of us have in whatever way we can. Right,exactly. Cool air quotes. So what, um, like you have the podcasts now, thisbook kind of like, is, looked like it was.

[00:07:18] Maybe started the process a longtime ago, or it's been a while. And then maybe just coincided with the factthat now you were able to take over as podcasts or like, was the book kind of aspur of the moment thing actually? Yeah, it was not a long time coming at all.This was, um, this was a perfect example of an idea that I kinda like zero to ahundred manifested very quickly.

[00:07:39] Um, and it actually happened. SoI don't know if you were there the last Quito of that. There was keynote conthat's in Austin. It's like right after paleo facts. Yep. Um, the last one thatwe were allowed to have when people could hang out, I went to that one and Iwas hanging out with some people. And I was talking to a couple of my friendswho had written cookbooks and I started just kind of this, again, this was likethe year of me, like doing stuff for [00:08:00] myself.

[00:08:00] Like this is the year of Ashley.Like I'm going to start some stuff out for myself. And I was talking to some ofmy friends who had created these cookbooks. I started thinking I'm like, I'mactually a writer. Like a lot of these people, they pay people to do therecipes for them. They're doing it because they have a lot of Instagram faultand I'm not, I'm not knocking them, but I'm just saying like, basically it'slike a product they're creating because they've got a big audience.

[00:08:18] They know they can sell somecopies. I actually like Vader and I want to, I have an idea that I really wantto do. And I've been mulling over this like origami concept for a whilebecause. I feel passionately about it. I eat them all the time and I wasstarting to share that with my online community. And people were starting tokind of be interested, like for everybody who did like a little puke emoji,when I posted about liver, there were people who were like, okay, like, whatare you doing here?

[00:08:43] Like, how do you make this? Howcan this good? Why is this good? And I'm like, I have, there's an opportunityhere. Like. As you know, you have a company and you sell products, you sell allkinds of things. Like there's a risk, but also a big reward to doing somethingthat a lot of other people aren't doing.

[00:08:59] Right. And [00:09:00] there'sthree or four origami cookbooks that exist. And they're usually French chefs.Or hunters. Right. So I knew that I had this ability to kind of connect withlike every person and put this out there in a way that's really accessible andencouraging and easy for people to get their heads around.

[00:09:16] And so I had this idea, Istarted talking to one of my girlfriends who had written some cookbooks and Ikind of was like soft pitching at her. I'm like, meet them. Like, what do youthink? You think that's a something I could get away with? And she's like, Ican, this is the great idea. I'm going to talk to my publisher.

[00:09:29] And if they like it, they'llcall you. Hmm. A week later, I had a call with victory belt and a week afterthat I had a contract because I was, I was so ready for this. Like I was goingto write this book, whether anyone picked it up or not. And I think that thepublishers back that, and they were like, all right, this chick's like into it.

[00:09:46] Like he knows, she knows whatshe wants with this. And then. You know, I, I created my own timeline becauseI'd never written a book before and I was an idiot and I created an incrediblyshort timeline, you know, like the rules of, you know, the work will fill the[00:10:00] time that you give it. Right. Exactly. So, and then of course ithappened that I was really getting to the meat, no pun intended of writing thiswhen the pandemic hit.

[00:10:09] And so I had no otherdistractions. I literally, for five months sat in my house and sat in front ofmy computer and wrote for 10 hours a day, rusty development, all this stuff. SoI ended up like, From talking, like getting a contract with my publisher, tothe book being in my hands was like 10 months. So that's still a good amount oftime.

[00:10:27] I mean, nowadays with theinternet, 10 months is like 10 years. Like what it used to be. So that's true.But not in the publishing world. No. I mean, for a book it's fast. Yeah. Thatis, it was, it was deeply intense, but it was also like if I had given myselftwo years, I just would have. I messed around for two years.

[00:10:44] It would have taken you two yearsif you gave, if you gave yourself two years, it's Parkinson's law. Yeah,exactly. I love the title. So why don't you just give us a rundown of the bookand, um, let's get into organ meats a little bit and talk about that a little.Yeah. So the book is, uh, an educational and I hope entertaining book that is[00:11:00] also a cookbook that is nose to tail Oregon meets specific.

[00:11:03] So it's broken down. There's abig section in the beginning that kind of talks about. The benefits of eatingnose to tail. And that's not just for health, but also, yeah. Sustainability,if the ethics standpoint, the economics wasting it, not wasting it. So all ofthat. And then it's a breakdown of what awful, what organ meats are, and sortof from head to toe, going through each cut and each organ and talking abouttheir benefits, how you prep them, how you cook them, um, how they're enjoyedculturally and throughout the road and all of these things.

[00:11:33] And then it's kind of brokendown. Because it's not a typical cookbook. It wasn't like breakfast, lunch,dinner. It's like the head, like the heart, the liver, like kind of broken downthat way. Um, with probably I think maybe 85 recipes. So. Yeah. I mean that,that's basically it, like, I just, uh, it was a lot of work for me because I'mnot a recipe developer.

[00:11:54] I mean, I'm a passionate eater,but I'm not like a, I don't have like a background as a chef. So a lot of itwas really [00:12:00] kind of a learning as you go learning process for me,like learning how to source some of these less typical cuts. Um, first time Ibrought home like a brain and I'm like, all right, I gotta do something withthis.

[00:12:10] Like, you know, it was a reallykind of fun, interesting learning experience for me, but it helped me kind of.Practice, what I preach around, um, turning towards every part of the foodcycle and the food system, instead of turning away from the stuff that makesyou uncomfortable, you know, because when you turn away, I'm talking aboutmediators too.

[00:12:29] I'm not just talking about likevegans and vegetarians here. The mediators who, who don't want to see the meaton the bone, or they don't want to think about what they're eating. When youturn away from the process, you allow all the inhumane shitty ways that wecreate animals to occur. Right. And that does still happen a lot.

[00:12:46] So if we can just sort of stoppretending that we're. Different from the rest of the world, that the animalkingdom, where we're not separate, pretend that we're separate from them andabove them. And that we're not part of the food cycle. [00:13:00] That is whatis allowing us to do all this inhumane crappy stuff that we're doing.

[00:13:04] So if we instead turn to it andsay, I'm immediate, or we're all omnivores, we're going to eat meat. So ifwe're going to do that, let's engage with the process. Let's learn about whereour. Our food is coming from how it's raised and harvested and how we can makethe best use of it and how we can support our local producers and all of thatstuff.

[00:13:22] So that's been like reallyprocessed for me. Yeah. So you had to get in the kitchen and, and was it likeyou had an idea because they gave you some recipe ideas of like, here, this iswhere you should start with like a liver worse. Like if you've never made thesecertain recipes with brains before. Where you're starting from.

[00:13:36] Is it just like Google, likeinvestigation to find out like how to make brain tastes good? Well, there wasdefinitely some research. Like I have Chris Constantino's book. Awful good.It's like one of the only like well-known or meat books. He's a chef who doesincredible things with organ meats. And I was like looking at his stuff and Iwas doing some research.

[00:13:53] I was looking, you know, I did alittle bit of that, but part of it was, there were a couple kind of avenuesthat I went down. One [00:14:00] was. Thinking of meals that I like already andthinking about how I can incorporate organ meats into them. So easy things likesausages and burgers and meatballs and omelets, whatever, and how you canincorporate, because I'm okay with people like hiding stuff a little bit.

[00:14:15] If you need the doing what everyparent in the history of the world has done for their kids and like hide theirvegetables under some melted cheese, like we're doing the organ meat version ofthis, right? Like if you need to mix it up and hide it, Getting the nutrition.Great. So sort of that approach.

[00:14:29] And then it was like lookingthrough different cultural cuisines and like different ethnic cuisines andlike, how are these people already doing this stuff? Because I have a lot ofpeople reach out to me on Instagram that are like, this isn't weird me. Like,everyone's talking about how this is extreme.

[00:14:42] This isn't weird. I make thisstuff every Sunday with my family, because it's really only a. Select group ofpeople, maybe in North America who are privileged enough to take one, cut froman animal and disregard the rest. Like, you know, like you talk about how it'sa privileged position to be a vegan [00:15:00] because before grocery storesyou couldn't choose to be a vegan.

[00:15:03] You just, yes. Yeah. So, soyeah, I mean, it's really like a very small subset. We have this like conceptthat we are the baseline and everybody else is weird when really throughout allof history and every person in the world. People ate every part of the animal,because that's just what you did like before Google will do how nutrient denseliver was, we'll just hunted animals and ate their livers.

[00:15:24] Cause they knew, right? Yep. Soyeah, it was a lot of trial and error. It was a lot of like, okay, so Iexperimented with this stew. Now I'm going to add some ingredients and changesome things up to make it work for me. So it was really just kind of like trialand error and like playing around really. And I did actually get, um, I wassmart.

[00:15:42] I got a couple. Like chef andrecipe developer, friends of mine to contribute recipes as well. So like BenGreenfield's family contributed on taco recipe and I have some other cheffriends who gave me like a really good Northern Italian liver and onions.That's like delicious and stuff [00:16:00] like that. So I had some likeringers come in and help me out too.

[00:16:03] Yeah. That's I mean, that'ssmart. I mean, Oh, where to go with this? Like, we've been eating, I'll justgive you a personal experience at the home. We've been eating liver jerky.Because somebody is like, Oh man, liver drink is so good. It's easy. And I'vegot a food dehydrator or whatever. So we've been making that and you know, myson likes it, you know, I eat it.

[00:16:20] I don't know if I would say Ilike it, but I, um, When I'm eating it, I like the nutrients that I'm getting.Right. So it's a different kind of preference of what I'm trying to achieve.But I think to your point about like sometimes doing things that are hard,sometimes not doing the things that are easier convenient, you know, likethere's so much of the fragility anti-fragility built into that.

[00:16:38] And I think about that all thetime for health nutrition for just like park at the end of the parking lot,instead of like taking the, or taking the stairs. And so the escalator, like,you know, seek the path of most resistance. So when it comes to organ meats,like obviously organ meats, the way I see it.

[00:16:52] Way more nutrient densegenerally. Right. Um, there are also a lot of times cheap and easy, easy toget, right. Like [00:17:00] liver versus like a grass fed steak. I mean, we'retalking like 10, 10, 10 livers versus a steak. Right. So, okay. Can you speakon that a little bit? Like the sustainability, the cost, and you know, whylike, what are the benefits, like why do people want to eat organs other thanjust like, Oh, I assume they're better for me.

[00:17:16] Yeah. I mean, I do love thoughwhat you said about like, you know, choosing paths that aren't necessarily theeasiest, because for every time that I try to convince people that liverdoesn't have to be disgusting. There's also a part of me that says, like growup and eat it anyway, because again, I go back to like, when you were.

[00:17:32] A kid and your parents were likeforcing you to sit at the table until you eat your broccoli. Like no one eatsbroccoli because it's delicious. You eat it because you were told that it'sgood for you and that you eat things that are nourishing and good for you. Sonot every, that's another kind of like unfortunate byproduct of the incrediblyprivileged life we have is that we now believe that food should be incrediblycheap, incredibly quick and easy and available.

[00:17:56] And hyper palatable. Everysingle thing we put in our mouth, we [00:18:00] think everything should bedelicious. If it's not delicious, then I don't want to do it. And if it's notsuper cheap, like we spend less money per percentage of our income on food thanwe have ever. Right? Like we spend less time in the kitchen.

[00:18:13] We don't prioritize thesethings. And I understand that other people are busier than me. I don't havekids. Like, I understand that people have it rougher and you have to be morebudget conscious. You have to be more time conscious, but it really is areprioritization of like, The food that you're putting into your body and your,your family's bodies are the most important things you can do.

[00:18:32] So if you want to spend a littlebit more percentage on that and a little bit more time making things togetherand, you know, look at things like it's nourishment versus just fun for yourmouth, right? Like, Eat liver, because it's good for you anyway. So that's onerant, but yes, most, I would say most organ meats, generally speaking are veryeconomical and much better bang for your buck, nutrition wise and even quantitywise.

[00:18:57] So if you think about somethinglike a beef art, [00:19:00] which is two and a half to three pounds, likethat's a head sized heart, um, that can feed. You know, a family of four forprobably a couple of days. And that's 15 bucks. I mean, you're getting poundsof meat, right? Chicken livers, chicken hearts, beef tongue.

[00:19:13] That's another one that it mighttake you a little bit of time to get your head around prepping it. Cause itlooks like a tongue it's kind of grizzly, but you know, we're talking again,maybe two pounds pound and a half, two pounds for $15, huge amount of meat,things like chicken hearts and chicken livers that you can get at any grocerystore.

[00:19:28] And like, like you said aboutkind of easy to get. A lot of these cuts are more easy to source than youthink, but yeah, you aren't looking for them. Most people aren't looking forthem. Like you could literally go to any grocery store and probably get chickenhearts, chicken liver, chicken gizzards. You're just, your eyes are going overthem.

[00:19:45] Cause you're not looking forthem. Right. So there are some organs that are a bit more expensive becausethey are rare or because they have like this perception that they're fancy. Soagain, going back to like the arbitrary concept of what is okay to eat and whatisn't. It's so silly that we're like, yeah, [00:20:00] cut this honk off theback.

[00:20:01] I'm good. Like the heart creepy.Like why would I do that? That's extreme. But like things like sweetbreads forwhatever reason have really entered more, the mainstream world is like adelicacy. Right? So you find them at French restaurants, poached and fried, andthey're done too. Right. So like some of these things might be a little bitmore expensive, but generally speaking, some of the more common and easy andversatile cuts things like heart and tongue and liver are going to be reallyeasy and cheap to find.

[00:20:28] So, and I also recommend, likein book, one of the things that you want to do with, again, you are committingyourself to. Paying more attention to what you eat and really sort of immersingyourself in that world is go make friends with the local butcher. Like thereare, there may be some people who geographically have a harder time, but most placesin North America, you have a butcher shop somewhere relatively close by or afarmer's market.

[00:20:51] Where farmers are going to becoming and bringing their food personally. And they will be more than happy toanswer questions to talk to you. You can ask if they have [00:21:00] these cutswhere they're getting them from, um, where the farms are and how they're beingraised and where they're being slaughtered and how they're coming to you andall this stuff, how you prep them, how you cook them.

[00:21:09] Like I was making great friendswith butchers around here because I was going in every week and ordering. Allkinds of weird stuff. So they were happy to talk to me and answer questions.And, um, you learn a lot that way. And I think that again, of course you wantto be doing that rather than picking up some liver from the grocery store whenyou don't know where it's come from, how long it's been there.

[00:21:27] I still think there are otherkind of controversial conversations that we could have around, you know, howmaybe some of this, like. Conventional meat isn't as bad nutritionally as we'vebeen led to believe. Oh, really? So what do you mean by that? Cause I have myopinions on this topic. If you read like a sacred cow here, like Diana Rogers wasRob bull, fantastic book.

[00:21:49] And this again, isn't speakingto the ethics or whatever of feedlot, factory farming kind of nightmare, butthere seems to be some evidence. Or at least [00:22:00] lack of evidence thateating the highest quality grass-finished beef is going to have a significantimprovement on the person eating it, their health, two grain fed you meancompared, right?

[00:22:12] So you're saying grain fed maynot be as bad and slash grass fed may not be as good as they like to make itsound. Yeah. I think the idea of that for me has always been, because I don'tlike to be super dogmatic about anything, which I know makes me not as popularas other people on the internet. Cause being clickbait and controversial isbetter than being nuanced.

[00:22:34] But I really think that ifpeople get paralyzed by, I'm not sure. Within 10 miles of a grass-finished IIIfarm. And I can't highest quality. I'm going to eat this diseased meat and it'sgoing to make me sick. It's going to be terrible. Just screw it. I'll go be avegan or I'll go to the grocery store, right.

[00:22:50] Where, you know, I think AmandaRogers, the said you can't like, quote me completely here, but she basicallysaid like, Factory beef still better than Twinkie, right? [00:23:00] So it'sabout, for me, it's about making the best decisions you can with what you haveavailable to you with where you are geographically with your budget, with yourability to kind of make these decisions.

[00:23:09] Just try to make the betterdecision, but don't be paralyzed. Don't be guilty about not doing the best themost, every time, just. Arm yourself with this information and make the bestdecisions where you can, you know, another big thing that I wanted to talkabout with the meat story, because a lot of another kind of challenge thatpeople come to me with is they're like, well, do I have to be worried abouttoxins and organ meats?

[00:23:31] And are they like less safe toprep and to make, because I think again, because people have this concept thatorgans are extreme, they think of them as like scarier or more dangerous. Forwhatever reason. And generally speaking, I mean, of course you have to use yourown discretion and prep the food and the way that makes you, you know, feelcomfortable.

[00:23:51] And I can't tell anybody like goup there and eat raw liver. You'll be fine. Like you need to use your ownjudgment, but if you are sourcing high quality, [00:24:00] local fresh, wellraised me. There really, isn't a difference in the risk factor in eating themuscle meat versus the organs. So, you know, things like liver and kidney,which everyone talks about as being filtering organs.

[00:24:12] And so they're, they'refiltering the toxins are going to be full toxin. They filter the toxins, theydon't split them. Right. Filter them they're methylated so that they can thenbe excreted. Right. So if you're actually worried about eating toxic animalproducts, where we store our toxins, everyone knows and sand our fat.

[00:24:29] Right. Humans and animals. So ifyou're worried, you should be like skipping the fatty ribeye and maybe eating,I don't know, like higher quality leaner cuts or better quality liver. Right.Which nobody wants to hear because it wants to eat the fat part walk, at leastI do, but yeah, I mean, I think it's just neat.

[00:24:46] I think the more we talk aboutit and the more we normalize it and show people not in a judgmental way, butjust show people that it's, it's really arbitrary learned for us to be afraidof. Eating the whole animal. When we are doing ourselves a [00:25:00]disservice by ignoring and throwing away the most nutrient dense parts.

[00:25:04] And if you, even, if you aresomebody who wants to eat less meat, for whatever reason, because you thinkit's better for the environment or it's more ethical, if you want to eat lessmeat, the best way to do that is to eat organs because you're getting so muchmore bang for your buck. You can eat less and get more out of it.

[00:25:19] So. It's really a win-win nomatter how you select more nutrition, you get more nutrition per penny, too.That's an art. It's like, it might be the same poundage, but you might begetting double the amount of vitamins and minerals or this or that or whatever.So, I mean, there's definite a lot of benefits to, to, to organs.

[00:25:33] I'm trying to wrap my headaround like, okay, I'm eating liver. What, what would be the next thing toexpand from my, my liver crisp jerky. That's just like a convenient, more of asnack to like an accessible meal that I could like program into our like weeklyschedule. Yeah. I mean, I would almost tell people who are just getting startedto not even start with liver.

[00:25:54] I would say start with organsthat are also muscle meats. So again, so what are [00:26:00] those heart? It'shard and time to right. Tongue tongue is almost like shredded. I've made tonguetacos. It's like shredded beef. It's amazing. Like it's probably the, I thinkthe easiest organ meat I've ever had. Exactly. And it's funny and it's delicious.

[00:26:11] If you're scared of buying atongue, just go to a good Mexican restaurant and order some tongue tacos. Yeah.It's so delicious. But yeah. Start with those because a lot of people have anissue texturally, right. So they're freaked out by Liberty texture. So get anorgan or a cut that is just like muscle maintenance.

[00:26:29] Heart is, has a very beefy kindof safety texture, and it's really versatile. So you can chop it up andmarinade it overnight. Some, you know, whatever spices and finger, and then youput on your barbecue, you can put it on your skillet. You can stuff it withwhatever you want and roast it in the oven. I mean, there are so many thingsyou can do with art, super easy.

[00:26:47] And a lot of the organs do havelike similar kind of nutritional profiles of liver, as we know is sort of themost nutrients that has the most of everything you want, but even heart has.You know, a ton of iron, a ton of B vitamins [00:27:00] vitamins. You can, ofcourse we can. We know is a great antioxidant, lots of naturally any oxidants,lots of protein.

[00:27:06] Um, so again, it's not likeliver or bus, you know, you can eat all of these other things. You don't haveto like everything. Like I tell people all the time, I don't really likekidney. Like I tried, like I made some recipes I'm I'm working on it, but Idon't love it. So I'm not going to force myself. I'm eating liver, meetingheart beating tongue.

[00:27:23] Yeah. Find what works for youand just try to incorporate it, you know, relatively regularly. And you'll, youwill notice. You will notice a difference. You will feel more healthy. Like I'msure as you know, I talk about this all the time, but like when I eat liver, Ifeel nourished in a way that I not, when I eat any other, like you can't eat achicken breast and tell me that you feel the same way as after you eat a coupleounces of liver, it's completely different.

[00:27:46] It's so bioavailable and it's sodense with everything you need. It's like, you're a superstar. It's worth it.Yeah. And I think, I think an important thing to point out here, which isactually a conflict of interest for me, considering the products I sell, butpeople [00:28:00] need to think about food as their primary form ofsupplementation, right?

[00:28:04] Vitamins and minerals. That'swhat people they go to the supplement aisle and they want like, take this forthat, take that for that. And I think supplements can be used to maybe optimizeand some people do have issues with you and absorption or like they really neediron for whatever reason. Like. You know, postpartum, uh, Alison she's havingsome irony issues, so we gotta figure how to diagnose that.

[00:28:21] And it's a combination of realfood and submissive, but it's not just supplements. Right. So I feel like nothaving organ meats in this, the standard American diet is probably one of thereasons that we have so many people, so deficient in so many vitamins andminerals. And like, I mean, literally they say like, like a few ounces of liveronce a week.

[00:28:38] Gets like all your vitamin alike for the whole week or whatever. Right. So it's like, I don't know where Iwas going with that, but we need people's eat more organs, you know? Yeah. Youknow, and kind of similarly to what you're saying, like, you know, that likefunny meme on the internet or whatever, that's like, people will eat Twinkiesand like rockstar drinks, but then if you tell them to like every carbs, thenthat becomes scientist.

[00:28:58] Like, so when we are [00:29:00]telling them to eat something healthy, they suddenly get like very overly kindof defensive and interested in, like, people ask me all the time. They're like,well, are you worried about. Like iron overdose. So like vitamin a overdose andall of these things and like great boogeyman to like, Basically only make iteasier to make their bad decisions.

[00:29:15] Right? Like if I eat liver, I'mnot going to have too much iron and it's going to kill me. And it's like, okay,there are a very small portion of people in the world that if you have doneyour due diligence and you get your blood tests and you kind of know what'sgoing on with your body, you're going to be more susceptible to some of thesethings.

[00:29:29] Very rare. And usually that kindof stuff, iron vitamin, a, all of those kinds of things come from actualsupplements, not from eating whole foods because you have to eat so much andjust, nobody's eating 14 ounces of liver a day. Nobody's doing that. It's so muchmore likely that you are going to benefit from eating organ meats.

[00:29:47] Then you're going to have anissue. So, I mean, it's not, that's not a problem for 99% of people. 99% ofpeople can slight let's start to. Baby steps, incorporate some of the stuff,couple [00:30:00] ounces at a time mixed in with your ground beef. If you needto made into a moose or Patay where it's full of butter and cream and booze,how can you not like that?

[00:30:08] That's one way to make liverpalatable and you're going to notice the difference. And I totally agree withyou that we, of course. We are all a lot of us massively vitamin deficient.We've got like vitamin D problems, magnesium problems, iron, all the Bvitamins. We're just, we're, it's a mess and we don't have to spend.

[00:30:26] And I know, like you said, you,you have a, you have a supplement company. I still want people to eat real foodfirst though. That's always the thing they need to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,I, I, we need more Oregon beats than anyone I know. And I still supplement onand off, and I still have products that because I'm not going to eat organmeat.

[00:30:40] All the time and I travel andyour situation changes and your health changes and your goals changed. And soit's really about being really on top of your body signals and paying attentionto them and knowing what you need. But I mean, you know, absolutely Oregon, me,it should be like the first line of defense.

[00:30:55] That's like nature supplement,and then you kind of go and click from there. Yeah. Well, and also [00:31:00]I've thought about this quite a bit, talking about like liver jerky on aprevious podcast, I was like, okay, why is there certain things like eating toomuch liver, even though I've actually looked some of the research.

[00:31:08] It's kind of suspect that youcould actually eat too much liver and have issues like vitamin a, they say likevitamin a toxicity is a common thing. Um, but let's assume that that's thecase. Well, if we think about we're hunting a big bison or the old Araki orwhatever, Macedonia, whatever. Well, they usually don't have like one Oregon.

[00:31:25] For each kind of thing. Right.And if you had 40 mixed sex homosapiens that have to survive off this kill,like not, everybody's going to be eating a full serving of liver and you'reprobably going to be eating it like every day or every other day or whatever.So it almost looks like if you look at nature and you look at the nutrientprofile and the mix of the animals that we would have hunted and lived off of,which are red meat, wild game, et cetera, it almost seems like organ meats arelike nature supplement.

[00:31:48] Because we would only have hadthem, right. Like, based on hunting rates and all these different things, likea little bit here and there. And they would probably would have been spaced outjust like sugar. Right? Like people make that argument just honey [00:32:00]sometimes or fruit only certain times of the year.

[00:32:02] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, butagain, I think that's. Y w there, there has to be context and nuance with theseconversations and like, you know, uh, the carnivore diet, which I actually,like, I use a tool though. I don't, I don't call myself a carnivore or say thatI only eat carnivore, but I do actually like it as a like temporary reset tool.

[00:32:21] And I think if we start lookingat these different methodologies, these different diet protocols, thesedifferent approaches, instead of as. Our personnel like our identity or w youknow, how we can differentiate ourselves from other people or whatever. Andinstead look a bit like these are tools that I'm educating myself about that Ihave in my toolbox that I can use when I need to.

[00:32:42] And yeah, like I go throughperiods, especially after my book was done, where I was like, don't show meanother organ meat. Okay. Because my freezer has been full of. Gnarly stuff formonths. And I want a break. I'm going to eat chicken thighs and I'm going to, Idon't know. Um, and that's fine. And I, you know, I that's, the other thingtoo, is a lot of these things like [00:33:00] their, their stores too.

[00:33:01] So like, if you eat, if you're,if you have like, you do your sort of cyclical bounty, and maybe your next likemeat CSA or whatever, you get some liver and some heart and you need a bunch ofit over like a month or two, maybe you go a month or two and you don't eat any,like it's, you know, that's, again, it's more being in tune with the way ourbodies are supposed to mean by stored.

[00:33:18] You mean like the nutrients thatthey release slowly. Right? Right. Can you explain that a little bit? What youmean by that? I mean, so like vitamin D as we know, and I don't know if it'sdifferent when you supplement it with supplement versus when you're absorbingit, um, through the sun, but when you're absorbing it through the.

[00:33:32] Son, your tissues can absorbenough so that it sort of lasts you for awhile. Right. Um, and I don't thinkall, all vitamins I'd have to check. I don't think there's certain B vitaminsthat can last in the liver for a long time. That's why you typically vegans cankind of go. Yeah. Two to three years and I'm like, I feel amazing.

[00:33:50] And then your four though, likeif they didn't have supplementation in place, they're like, I can't move. Ican't think nothing. You know, like there's a lot of that stored in your fatand your, in your organs, they're kind of released slowly. [00:34:00] But ifyou think about that, that makes sense. Like nature had to program our speciesto go potentially long periods of time without game, maybe without these plantsor that fruit or that, whatever.

[00:34:08] Like, we are extremelyresilient, the most resilient species on the planet, basically the mostsuccessful anyways. So if we didn't have, like, if we had to eat, I think aboutus a lot. When people talk about like, PH acid alkaline balance, which I thinkis basically a myth at this point, but I'm like if mother nature had it so thatwe had to be worrying about like what foods we're eating and how to get on aschedule.

[00:34:27] And we lived in an environmentwhere we could literally not choose what food was going to come to us that day.Like. This doesn't add up. Like it doesn't add up at all. So I don't think ourbuyers are like pools. They have to be perfectly balanced, like pH or withcertain vitamins or minerals, you know, over years or months.

[00:34:43] Yeah. Like you can run intoproblems, but generally a mixed omnivore diet is probably going to get youeverything you need. Yeah. I agree. And I, the that's why probably the thingthat I would. Push or advocate for the most over anything is metabolicflexibility and resilience, which you [00:35:00] get from not being superdogmatic and following something incredibly restrictive and strict.

[00:35:05] Because when you do that again,I'm not talking about people who, because of their very specific healthproblems have to eat a certain way or they're, they're going to die. I'mtalking about the vast majority of us in the middle who can kind of just. Dowhatever. Um, yeah, if you only eat super, super strict and you can't ever eata curb, you go nuts and then your situation changes in your body falls apart.

[00:35:24] You have to be able to adapt andbe flexible. Like I've read that she's to the point over, you know, I'm notperfect and I'm not perfect. Tell if I do my best and I, I think I do. Okay.But like, I've reached a point over years of work and understanding my body andexperimenting where I need to fast for 36 hours.

[00:35:41] I can. And I'm fine. And if Ineed to eat. Only fat for a week. I'll be fine. And if I eat a ton of carbsnext week, cause I like it, I'll also be fine. And that's, that is what I thinkwe should all be striving for. And especially in this weird time ofuncertainty, when there's so much out of our control, what we do have controlover is our own [00:36:00] individual resilience and ability to adapt and beflexible to whatever's kind of coming at us.

[00:36:05] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if peopleare willing to take. That responsibility, which a lot of people aren't. Right.So, I mean, we're talking about Oregon meats. This is like pretty niche ofniche, you know, but what are, what are some simple ways that people can, like,what are some of your favorite recipes for fuel to get started?

[00:36:20] So we talked about tongue,right? Are there any. Like things that you just fry in a pan or is it usuallylike slow cooked or is it just like a mixed bag where you have like some stuffwhere you just prepping a food processor? Some you bake some, you do this, likegive me some like staples. So, I mean, some really easy stuff is of course, oneof the super sexy foods that has even reached like mainstream approval is likebone broth.

[00:36:42] Right. So could, could it getany easier? And you're getting tons of amino acids and healthy fats andcollagen and all that good stuff. And it's literally just like, What did youeat? Like pick the bones and put it in a slow cooker and put some, I dunno,spices or whatever you want in there. And you get bone broth and then can evenuse the bone broth.

[00:36:59] If you're [00:37:00] somebodywho, God forbid you eat carbs or something, you can make your rights with bonebroth. And then you've got nutrition from that. Right? So do glaze your pantswith bone broth. You can make a sauce. Every time I cook steak, I throw somebone broth in it to glazes the pan. Then you pour that with butter over thesteak.

[00:37:13] It's like, you know, there yougo. Yep. Stuff like that is super easy. I always tell people with heart. Imean, you can do so much with it. Like I said, it's versatile, but you can alsoliterally buy a heart, like clean it up a little bit, chop it up and put it inyour skillet with some butter and you can eat it.

[00:37:28] I mean, it's, it couldn't beeasier. Um, the same goes for chicken hearts and a lot of people maybe feelcertain ways about poultry, but like, Chicken hearts. You buy a pound of themfor three bucks and you put in your skillet for five, right. Just Brown them.Right. Maybe some salt and then just taste them, tastes that yeah, I like itwhen they're really cooked down.

[00:37:45] Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I hadthem for breakfast yesterday. Like they're so easy. It's ridiculous liver. Soin other words, like a lot of times with chicken liver and I tell people too,if you're kind of like dipping your toes in organ meats, And you're a littlebit intimidated by the taste or the PR that [00:38:00] you want to start small.

[00:38:01] And I mean, physically smallwith smaller animals, because the smaller, the animal, the milder they're goingto taste. So chicken liver is much milder tasting than a bison liver. Um, buteven things like lamb, like a lamb, lamb, liver lamb, heart is going to have amilder, but also more Lammy flavor. So if you like that, you know, they're,Gordon's are going to taste of the animal, um, that they're coming from.

[00:38:21] So. Yeah. I mean, uh, liver,like, I like to clean up some chicken livers, wrap them in prosciutto or baconagain, throw them on the skillet with some B cook until they're you don't wantto over cook liver because that's when it gets really look rubbery and pastyand gross. You want them to be a little pink on the inside?

[00:38:38] Yep. Yep. But yeah, I mean,rapid and bacon, like I'm not going to judge you wrap whatever you want. Baconmakes, tastes better. Like put it on the oven. Yeah. I mean, it's like some ofthese things too, like you can also go to your butcher, for example, if youwant to do, um, the sort of like ground beef burgers that are liver, kidney,heart, and ground beef, and you just want to do all that work.

[00:38:57] That's so good. But most, most[00:39:00] butchers will kind of do that for you. If you say, can you do a mixfor me? And you usually want to do sort of like a four to one ish ratio so thatyou're really not tasting it too much. Like you might a little bit. We'll do itfor you. So my other recommendation is like, if you want to do this in sort ofprogressive steps, you don't have to go from standard American diet to sourcingyour own brain.

[00:39:17] Like start out by going torestaurants and having professionals make this stuff for you. Just, you can geta taste for it so you can try it and then have your butcher prep, the stuff foryou by sliced tongue at your Jewish delis. You don't have to buy the tongueyourself and make it like. Ease your way in, and then you'll get to the pointthat you'll become more empowered and more into it, and then you'll go by yourown and you'll try it and, you know, do it in stages.

[00:39:39] But it's like, I look at it likeit's an adventure, it's fun. You get to try new things and have newexperiences. And when you buy a different cut of meat and you make a recipe andit turned out. That's cool. That's fun. That's empowering. You just dosomething and learn something and provided nutrition for your family.

[00:39:55] And that's awesome. So, youknow, looking at that way, instead of this is scary and weird and I'm[00:40:00] freaked out by it. Look a bit like this is weird and interesting andfun. Like, let's give this a shot, you know? Yeah. I, we need, you know, weneed a complete revamp of how. America thinks about food anyways, which I thinkis like a lot of what motivates, why like you do what you do.

[00:40:14] I do what I do, you know, but Iwill say that the point about the ground beef, the ground. So there's a companyI think is forced to nature. I think they're based in Austin and they have thisancestral blend, which is three or four organs and they have a bison and abeef. And I'm telling you literally, it tastes like ground beef.

[00:40:29] I mean, I. Can taste nodifference with a little bit salt and you can make meatballs burgers, you canjust Brown it and, you know, maybe put some cheese on whatever. That's prettymuch answers the question. I think that's probably the easiest way to getstarted. I think then after that, can you tell Patay, so can you give us likethe bait, your basic favorite pet Tay recipe?

[00:40:45] Cause there's like a thousand waysto do it, but it's all kind of based on the same. Simple technique useful.Yeah. Yeah. I've got like duck terrain in there because duck liver and duck,like  duck fat is like the most deliciousthing in the world. And I've got a chopped liver in there and then [00:41:00]I've got a chicken liver mousse.

[00:41:01] I think those are the only threesort of Patay related recipes, but essentially it's you lightly cook the liver.So again, you're going to put some chicken liver in a, in a skillet with some buttermaybe until it's like, just cooked through so pink beans, you really don't wantto over cook it. And it's scenario.

[00:41:17] And then you're generally mixingit with, um, cream butter, some kind of, a little bit of booze to give it sortof, I don't know what it does, but it makes it better. And also if you don'twant to use those, you can also kind of like do like Apple cider vinegar. Likeit needs some kind of acid. It is not as good.

[00:41:35] I'll be completely upfront withyou. I've made the chicken liver mousse in my book. Paleo with Apple cidervinegar and like the good way with  andit's way better with tequila. Um, but essentially it's making this very, verylike rich, savory, but a little bit sweet spread. I mean, I don't know too manypeople who eat meat that don't love.

[00:41:56] Patay like on a Shukui board andmaybe with some like salty [00:42:00] crackers or something. Super super rich.I mean, that's it, it's spices, maybe a little bit of like chopped garlic andonion. Something you put it in. Yeah. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. Youcan literally flavor it any way you want. It's it couldn't be easier.

[00:42:11] That's probably the recipe Iactually make the most for my own book is the chicken liver mousse. Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. But it doesn't last that long. It's very good. Like it's, you know, andagain, you can eat a couple spoonfuls and you're like, I just like superchargedmyself for the day. Like, that's all you need.

[00:42:26] You don't have to eat. A cup ofit, you know, do you have you, are there any seafood recipes in there? BecauseI, we do a Cod liver pet day. That is like my new favorite thing. I mean, canCod liver is actually pretty accessible. You can get on Amazon, everything. Andit's something I never thought about eating in his whole form because I'vealways just liked thought Cod liver comes in a bottle, it's a supplement, butI'm like, it's amazing.

[00:42:46] And I'm usually mixed withsardines and I blend it up and my son loves it. It's probably the, one of the mostnutrient dense things that he eats. So delicious Cod liver, people are sleepingon this because it comes in a can. It's like, I'm [00:43:00] like, it is themost decadent delicious. And so it's funny, you mentioned it because I reallydon't have that many fish recipes.

[00:43:05] It's kind of just harder to workwith by nature of the animal. But I do have like a fish broth. That's reallygood. I have a, like my own it's actually Cod liver, um, like egg salad. It'sreally good, super easy recipe. I'll send you authentic to use. You can try it.I'm waiting on my book. Actually, the book is coming to you very soon.

[00:43:26] Um, but I tried, like anotherthing I tried to do with some of these recipes is like, I really wanted tobring my personal experience to it. So I was trying to find recipes from. Theplaces where I'm from the places where my family's from, the places I've lived.Um, one recipe that didn't make it into the book, unfortunately, but it's a bigrecipe.

[00:43:43] Um, on the East coast of Canada,where I'm from is Cod tongues and Cod tongues. Have you ever had Cod town? No.Okay, so Cod is yeah. Yes. And usually what they usually have they're preparedis fried. So there'll be like breaded and battered, like fish and chips. And of[00:44:00] course you can do this in a healthier way, if you want with like thepaleo kind of gluten-free breading or whatever, but they're just like liver,like the Cod is Addie rich.

[00:44:09] Fetish and the tongue is justthis like morsel of like fatty delicious, but it was so good. But anyway, Cod,tone's not easy to come by unless you like live in Newfoundland. So I didn'tget to put that one in there. I'm hoping to kind of, um, play around with, youknow, some more recipes sort of in the future.

[00:44:24] Cause again, I had six monthsthen I had to send it all in, but uh, yeah, not as many fish, but there's somein there. Yeah. Well, let's get into the lightning round and then I'll let yougo. This has been plenty of stuff for people to get into and obviously wherethey can get the book and everything, I assume it's going to be on all theplaces that it's usually Amazon physical copies in places.

[00:44:43] Yeah, it it'll be a, it'll be instores. I don't know when this is coming out, but it'll be in like Barnes andnoble chapters, whatever, as of October 20th, and then you can buy it online.Amazon or wherever books are sold. Awesome. Okay. So what is something andlet's, let's do the pandemic edition for this one.

[00:44:59] So [00:45:00] normally it wouldbe like a hundred dollar purchase or less that impacted you, but let's do the ahundred dollars purchase or less during the pandemic that impacted you or wasmeaningful. Um, a hundred dollars purchase during the pandemic. I mean, Ibought a pull-up bar that wasn't a hundred bucks actually.

[00:45:13] I'm lying. I was probablyactually way more way more expensive. Of course. Yeah. I mean, that's going tobe crazy expensive. Um, I mean, honestly going back to sort of supplements. Ihave to say the thing that made a huge difference at the beginning of thepandemic for me, because I think it was just a mixture of stress and I'mnormally somebody who moves around and lead my house and travels all the timeand just whatever was happening to my body.

[00:45:39] The first few months I startedexhibiting some weird health issues that I normally do not have. Like I washaving like weird histamine responses and like, I was getting hives. I've neverhad hives in my life, like all kinds of weird stuff. And I startedsupplementing with, and of course, I mean, as you know, like.

[00:45:55] High histamine foods are alsothe healthiest, most delicious foods. It's like bone broth, [00:46:00] avocadomeat, like it crazy. So, um, I had to kind of adjust my diet a little bit, butI started taking, um, digestive enzymes probiotics and, um, it's I don't knowhow to pronounce it. It's called

[00:46:14] maybe sometimes. Yeah, whateverthat is, but that's not something that's been on my radar. The combination ofthose things made a significant difference in my health, because I could justtell that my body like. Going a little bit haywire under like the different setof pressures. And I needed like my histamine and my sort of just like immuneresponse was just kind of like overflowing and the combination of those threethings completely sorted me out.

[00:46:37] So I think people just need tounderstand in this. Kind of time that like this, because you're highfunctioning and just because you're still working out every day and eatingwell, this is a weird, unprecedented time at our bodies. Bodies are going to beaffected by that. And so give yourself a little bit better, have a breaksupplement where you need to pay attention to what your body's telling you,because you may not be registering it.

[00:46:56] Cause you're just so go, go, go,but don't let yourself do that. Yeah, [00:47:00] for sure. Favorite bingeworthy show during the pandemic that you did binge on and finish, or maybe inthe process. Okay. So this is again, very on brand for this conversation. Haveyou watched Hannibal? I have not. I keep seeing it. They'll pop up though.

[00:47:14] I'm not a fan of, is it, is itmore suspenseful or more scary? Suspenseful. It was very gross. Like it wasoriginally, it was originally on NBC and I'm like, how in the hell was this onTV to Netflix or something? It's not Netflix or where's it on? It's on Netflix.It's one of the most graphic shows I've ever seen, but.

[00:47:36] It is also incredibly well actedand beautifully shot. Like, you know, like not, not like this, but you rememberwhen 300 came out and everyone was like the Cinematheque. Yes. The color, thecolor grading they did. And everything was super awesome. Yeah. Beautiful. Butof course the guys eaten people, so people were sending this to me all daylong, be like, Hey, are you watching the show?

[00:47:55] I'm like, I don't eat people,but yes. And I love the show. So yeah. [00:48:00] Okay. Uh, so we got theNetflix show. We got the, we have the a hundred dollars. Okay. If you would putus something on the billboard during the pandemic and the PA during thepandemic only, which I guess is still going on, what would that be?

[00:48:11] What would that like a phrase ora call to action or something? Oh my God. These, these eat organ meat or eatmore organs. I mean, Truly like eat organ meats, but also think for yourself.Oh yeah. Okay. We'll expand that. What do you mean easier said than done? Whatdo you mean think for yourself and why, why would you say that?

[00:48:32] I think that, listen, we knowthat we're in a time when we spend much time online, we are at the whim ofclickbait and sensationalism and picking sides and algorithms. And it's a verydivisive time that we're in right now. And it's even worse when we're stuck athome. When we can't just have normal conversations with real people andunderstand that the world actually.

[00:48:52] Isn't reflected in the media,like the media is creating something and we're, that's not really what peopleare like. Um, [00:49:00] and so I think it's just increasingly important for uswho are, we are still trying to connect. And the only way we can do that isonline is to not let the knee jerk reactions, the algorithms, the fighting, andthe negativity get to you because.

[00:49:14] It won't get you anywhere. Wewon't progress as human beings in our career, in our relationships in life, byletting that shit drag us down. So I know it's easier said than done, but justlike try to just curate it and think for yourself and like don't be reactive,be proactive and just use it for what you need instead of letting it use you.

[00:49:35] I think. Yeah. Then the lastpart is what I was gonna say. Actually, it's most people can use by theirdevices. They do not use their devices. And so, you know, Cal Newport's book,digital minimalism is a huge, a huge, important read. Um, but it really, theend of day, like using things like airplane mode, turning off notifications, ifyou use, I'll just give some, everyone some advice, right?

[00:49:52] A lot of us are workingremotely. A lot of us are at home. There's nobody really managing us with themanage ourselves. And for some people that's new and different. If you have[00:50:00] notifications that show up in your screen or on your phone, whenyou're working. It is the antithesis to deep work and getting things done.

[00:50:05] It also creates low-levelanxiety where you're always like, Oh my God, somebody, you know, even whennobody's texting you, you're like, well, somebody could be texting me and thenyou're like, check your ringer. You're like, you're like go into your messagereal quick and make sure you didn't miss anything.

[00:50:16] And how you have like thosePhantom messages that show up like this shit is ruining. It's quite literallyruining our species. And I actually don't think we know how bad it is just yet.And I will leave the audience with one example of where we could go with this.So Japan is having a issue with low birth rates because nobody's having sexright now.

[00:50:39] They're trying to connect allthese reasons why that is Japan itself has always been kind of an xenophobicculture and they very much keep to themselves. You don't talk to strangers.Very strange. If you do that, like, you know, The younger generation is growingup on devices to which their only form of communication, the opposite sex isquite literally through their device.

[00:50:55] They don't know how to talk inreal life. I mean, it's just like it's [00:51:00] yeah. It's almost like a, notlike we're watching this social experiment that could happen here, or it couldhappen in 20 years or whatever. And I mean, I think we're seeing this in Chinamore too, because they're. All the kids are growing up with smartphones.

[00:51:09] They've got smartphones. You've longerthan we've had. And so we're going to see a new law too. Like I worry about thegeneration. I, you know, maybe it's me being biased, but I feel like we're sortof at a generation where at least we sort of grew up in a really formativeyears without being attached to stuff.

[00:51:24] Yeah. You and I though. Yes.That's what I'm like 30 plus. Right. But before that, I mean, literally what Ifound was 2009. So you have kids that are going to literally by the time theycan. I mean at this point, even they get iPads in there for like, cause it'sjust easier give an iPad, right? Like they're getting iPhones at like seven andeight.

[00:51:42] I've been hearing people forwomen. I actually saw some research for this recently. Girls have it harderwith social media and this made a lot of sense to me because they tend to go tosocial media. And they kind of get into the comparison mode, the grass,screener, the toxicity, all these things. Like they start trying to appeal andlook a certain way.

[00:51:58] Whereas boys [00:52:00] don'tstruggle as much because they tend to like go play games and they kind ofrelease in a different way cause they're interested in different things. And Iwas like, that's why there's more suicides on the rise among young women. Andit's like, We have no idea how bad it's going to get these, these people aregonna grow up.

[00:52:14] They're gonna get intogovernment. They getting to corporations like, like it's just really, reallybad who told us that we can't teach girls to go play sports and get theirvalidation through physical competence who told us that we've created thisnarrative? Like yes, little boys and girls. Do have different interests, but ifyou encourage girls to learn about sports and physical activity and play, they'regoing to do it too, but we teach them a lot of times.

[00:52:38] It's like, Oh, be careful. Don'tclimb that tree. Like look cute in your little dress. And then we tell boys, goplay and be boys and be rough and tumble. And then wonder why. Women don't havethat same body physical competence. This is something I talk about on thepodcast all the time that I believe, especially for women, because we aren'tcaught at when we're younger, that true confidence comes from competency.

[00:52:58] It doesn't come from being[00:53:00] cute and it doesn't come from, you know, whatever being popular onInstagram, because there's always people cuter and more popular than you. Whatgives you? Competence is being good at things. So if you. Learn to be good at asport to be strong, to use your body. And of course be good in school and smartand read books and all those things.

[00:53:16] Then you have real confidencewhere you can be like, it's great. That I'm cute. It's great that I'm popularon Instagram, but guess what? I also have master's degree and can snatch mybody weight or whatever, you know, so we need to, we really need to push thatcompetency and that building skills, because as much as we are moving into anincreasingly  like that still isn't reallife.

[00:53:35] As much as we think it is. Itisn't. We still got to have something behind the screen of value and substance.Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm worried, like I'm genuinely worried. I haven't found myselfgetting sucked into conversations, you know, like, you know, the commentdebates where you're just like, do I not say anything here?

[00:53:51] Because if I don't say anything,they're getting the last word in. And I think what they just said isridiculous. So there's this like inner desire to need to respond, but then, youknow, when you respond, they're going [00:54:00] to respond and then it's justa never ending cycle. I literally was in like a 20 comment thread yesterdaythat I eventually was like, I was like I told the social media person, becauseit was on a Ralph Woods account.

[00:54:08] I'm like, you're going to haveto block these people. I do not want to see the notification again. And it'sjust purely for a way to remove the notification. I don't care if I block them.I just don't want to see their comment again. And. I'm a 35 year old male thatis completely aware of all these things.

[00:54:20] And I still get pulled into liketeenage debates online all the time. Like this is how insanely destructive. Iliterally believe it's destructive. That technology and social media is for us,for humans. Like I think it's our greatest existential threat. I think if wedon't fix it, we're gonna probably have world war three and or civil war atsome point.

[00:54:37] Some, yeah, I agree. It's a bigdeal. I think to end it on a more positive note, it's just terrifying andapocalyptic. I think that the, one of the only ways we can start to combat thatis by doing what we're doing, but also like you have, you have one boy or two Ihave to now we just had a two, we just had a newborn Rowan six weeks really.

[00:55:01] [00:55:00] He was born in thisroom behind me. We did a home birth and everything. It was crazy. Okay. Can wetalk about that on my podcast? Oh, totally. I can also, I also Allison's verywell-spoken and she loves podcasts, so we can even do a dual show about likeraising. Feeding. I mean, my son was first words, like when we started to talk,he's like more Pat day more Pat day, he loves the color petted.

[00:55:20] He would like say that it wasthe cutest thing ever. Yeah. Okay. You're definitely coming on to talk to thehome. What I was saying was you have children and so you can raise them theway, you know, and again, they're still in the world. They're still a part ofthe scary world, but like you can impart. What you know, to these kids and whatwe're doing through the podcast and what you're doing through the products thatyou provide in the works that you provide, the information you put out there.

[00:55:42] Like some days it seems like it'sliterally a needle in a haystack, but if we all look at it that way, who can weimpact immediately around us? That's, that's more important than like we yellloud enough on Instagram. Right. So, um, I think we're doing the right thing.Yeah. Yeah. I actually had one guy that reached out to me [00:56:00] onInstagram yesterday.

[00:56:00] He said that I motivated him tostart a YouTube channel. And I was like, dude, that's like, honestly, the bestfeedback I could get, because I've gotten the feedback where I lost 40 pounds.Like you just, I watched a video, I lost four pounds. And like, it just feelslike I don't get to see the before and afters.

[00:56:14] Like, it's just harder to kindof translate that from texts. But like he started a YouTube channel and like, Ilove it if you had a million subs and he like made a difference in the world,but it's like if every person that does that reaches a few other people. That'sthe entire idea that paying it for concept, right?

[00:56:28] Like that's what we have to do.That's why I always remind myself when it gets frustrating. Cause it does getfrustrating. You put out content, the algorithms fight you, or you can getcensored. If you say the wrong thing or the wrong word or whatever. Um, peopleleave negative comments. You always remember the negative ones.

[00:56:40] You don't remember the 20positive ones. Like. Content creators is strange. It's almost like amasochistic thing to do that almost never makes any money or makes very littlemoney or it takes years to make any money. Right. So it's definitely a labor oflove. So yeah, you have to keep to what you're doing as well.

[00:56:55] It's a jungle out there totallyis. Okay. So where can people find you [00:57:00] on the interwebs? The placethat we told them, we should, they shouldn't go to stay off Instagram, but ifyou're going to go on there, check out the, at the muscle movement, it ishonestly online where I, where I'm the most visible. So I'm um, yeah, at themuscle Maven, I also have a website.

[00:57:15] It's just my name. Ashley vanHowten com. And then yeah, my podcast, muscle, even radio, you can get thatanywhere. You listen to the podcasts and the book, it takes guts. Anywhere youbuy books. It's actually a great name. I don't think we've mentioned the nameof the book, this entire show. So I'll put that in the title or something andthen links to everything.

[00:57:32] So actually it's been apleasure. We'll schedule our show soon. Yeah. Great talking to you. ThanksColin. Wow. Please always remember that the members. Of the ancestral mindpodcasts are not in fact medical professionals. They're not doctors, they'renot nutritionists. They are simply providing this entertainment for you to doyour own research and to entertain yourselves.

[00:57:57] So please consult a physicianbefore [00:58:00] changing your diet. Not everything works for everybody andmake sure you always do your own research on everything you hear on this showand outside.